Shiatsu

Michel Odoul is a shiatsu and psychoenergetic medicine practitioner as well as the founder of the French Institute of Shiatsu. He is the author of What Your Aches and Pains Are Telling You. He lives in Paris, France.

Below is a english transcript of the full conversation I had with him in Paris, in October 2020.

Emilie: You wrote a first book, Dis-moi où tu as mal, je te dirai pourquoi [Tell me where it hurts, I’ll tell you why]; the idea of everyday bodily ailments is familiar to you, so my first question is: how would you describe the ailments of our time?

Michel: That is a question that covers a lot of ground. The ailments of our time are very much in line with our lifestyles, and the way we think about the world. If you think that there is a meaning behind physical suffering, then that means that there is a very close link between body and spirit. In other words, from the moment that the mind thinks in a certain way and perceives the world in a certain way, this has an impact on our physical dimension. Sometimes there are subtle signs, through energy vectors, which are known in traditional Chinese medicine, but also in a much more pragmatic, concrete and basic manner: how I think about the world determines how I behave, how I eat, how I take care of myself, how I preserve my health, my body, how I think of disease, and so on and so forth.

Therefore, our lifestyles, which are consumer lifestyles – in other words we exist because we consume – will have consequences in the area of physiology, because consumption in and of itself, which was normally a vector of life, a tool for living, has become a goal and end in itself, and that resonance means that certain things in our bodies are not preserved. After all, in our world consumption means sensory satisfaction and pleasure, and sensory satisfaction and pleasure means convenience with regard to everything in our lives, especially nutrition. Therefore, convenience in taste means that we prefer simple salty and sugary flavors, etc.; we want to satisfy the desire that we feel at that very moment and eliminate the feeling of frustration.

In other words, little by little this lifestyle of ours has introduced eating habits that cause an imbalance, behaviors that cause an imbalance; the way we teach and raise our children causes an imbalance; all of this has determined the human beings that we have become: people guided by external factors, further and further away from that flame that burns inside of us, that keeps us alive.

Therefore, the pathologies that can be observed today are all pathologies related to a rupture. We are alienating ourselves from our true selves, and that separation leads to neurological pathologies, thus pathologies affecting immunity, since immunity is the capacity to distinguish between the self and the non-self. So, we need to be aware of ourselves. If that awareness of ourselves is not solid, our immunity is weak and we will become victims of all sorts of allergic phenomena as well as autoimmune diseases. This means that the major pathologies that affect our modern era are directly related to the things that we have forgotten.

Emilie: You, who are very passionate about mythology, do you think that all of this is related to a story from the past, a specific mythology that might actually illustrate that alienation from ourselves?

Michel: Of course. These are all the great stories of Greco-Roman mythology, which were also told in Genesis and the New Testament. The story of Moses is so representative of what is happening today. Moses gave everything in his fight to free the Egyptian slaves, and as soon as they were in the desert, confronted with the first difficulties, the slaves started missing the pyramids, because there at least they had food and shelter. In other words, we are talking about a phenomenon that repeats itself over and over again. Jung called that the shadow, everyone’s shadow, and everyone’s shadow is always the same – the same thing is happening again and again.

Emilie: So, now that this has become a collective and highly disturbing worldwide phenomenon, what is the path, what is the outcome? Does it mean that we have to learn what it is to be human all over again? Do we have to be forced to adopt alternative techniques that we have forgotten? Specifically, how can we prevent ourselves from walking down that path?

Michel: I think that the answer is both simple and complex and that we need to return to the essence and to ourselves. Therefore, we need to return to the true dimension of what life and human beings are, known as spirituality. It’s not a bunch of techniques, not even techniques of personal development or alternative medicine. Just because you go to church every Sunday doesn’t mean that you really believe in God. External practice may be largely insufficient, if it is not associated with an inner truth. External contexts, which we will call macrocosmic, in other words, what is going on at the global or international level, even at the level of a country, or within a family, are vast in dimension and we can do very little about them.

At the very moment something of that dimension is happening, the only thing we can do is change the way we have to experience it. This means we have to integrate all that it signifies, accept the price, and accept our part of the responsibility, because everything that goes on today is the result of things that we have expected and asked for, that we have looked for, because they have facilitated things in many different ways. I often use this image that in life things are a little bit like a cursor between two opposites, one of which is called freedom, and the other called security. The closer you bring the cursor to the freedom mode, the further you get away from the security mode, the further you want to approach the security mode, the further away you get from the freedom mode.

We wanted absolute security. It is a word that people repeat over and over again. Everywhere there are security measures for everyone’s security. You take a plane, you go somewhere, and people only talk about that; they talk about the principle of security and all that. We are living a lifestyle where we have lost the basic sense that life is a risk to be taken. In other words, a human being should be capable to deal with a certain number of things in life. It is the physical system called immunity. The immune system is our ability to deal with things. But that assumes that we are able to return to ourselves, which means that we should not wait for solutions or answers from the outside world.

Maybe we don’t know it, but the primary role of our immunity is not to protect us from outside aggressions, it is to destroy cells at the end of their lives, known as apoptosis.

Therefore, the first role of good psychological immunity is to clean up our internal selves, which means to reposition our fundamental points of reference. Then we are able to face an external world which may be, as is somewhat the case today, some kind of tsunami, a kind of whirlwind that appears, carries us away, but in which we are perhaps more than just flashes in the pan and can doubtlessly benefit on some level. From the moment there is clarity about this, there will be a kind of resonance that is the result of the way we live and behave, which in itself will generate a resonance that will serve as a light or example, and which may possibly allow others to hear, feel, perceive, and understand which direction to go in and what to do.

We are in a comprehensive and fundamental, but necessary cultural revolution that aims to put material values back into their proper place. We must come to understand that they are part of our universe, but that they are not the only values that count. We have to make room for the invisible in our lives again, be true to ourselves with a focus on spirituality – I am not talking about religion, I mean spirituality, being true to ourselves. Based on that, we must regain the awareness that being a human being is not something owed to us, but a duty: a duty to be, a duty to do, it is a duty for proper positioning, a real responsibility.

Emilie: So how did you find that coherence, you, as a man, and as a human being living in the same world as us, with everything it entails, all those demands, all of those pressures?

Michel: I had the good fortune to be the son of a forest ranger, to have grown up in the woods and forests, to have grown up surrounded by life and nature and seeing how it works, to have seen what the very principle of life is when its basic truth is expressed.

I gained the understanding that not everything is possible in life. There are rules, laws and codes of behavior. There are attitudes to adopt, there are ways of being. Animals have a rectitude which should inspire us every day, because there is a feeling that does not exist among them, but it does exist among us: it is called greed. Animals have a proper preservation of reality, of daily life. They have an awareness of themselves, they have an awareness of those they give life to and raise. I think this set of observations in nature became deeply engraved in my memory as a child and nourished something.

Then, I did like everyone else. I did my studies in economics where I learned about monetary results and how to manage material things. I also discovered that in financial interactions there were regulations, there was efficiency, there was significance, and that financial interactions were not bad in and of themselves, but were only what we make of them.

And based on that I learned that there could be “virtuous companies,” there could be ways to generate financial interactions that could be virtuous, which when carried out ethically produced companies in which the work environments, the environments themselves became virtuous, where most of the employees, with a few exceptions, were virtuous too.

Finally, I learned that this was life in its “commercial dimension,” in other words, the process of growth found in our entities and bodies could be something that brought life and brought a certain “nobility.”

Parallel to that, one day I discovered the Far East and a martial art known as aikido. This is a martial art in which you learn that the more the other party wants to hurt you and has violent intentions toward you, the less your response has to be on the same level. On the contrary, you have to be open to seeing the same, to the point of loving what he wants to do to you, because that is what gives you a leg up. It means that you are no longer a prisoner and you are not blinded by the other party’s intentions, and based on that you are able to master the situation, because the other one is blinded by his own intention.

In that way of seeing life from the East Asian perspective, I encountered a concept that was totally contradictory to the way we perceive things, which is that we have to put up a fight when faced with certain situations.

Martial arts will demonstrate effective techniques and prove that fighting against someone only works if you are stronger than the other party, but afterwards that no longer works. However, if you give up the fight and try to use the energy that the other party is giving off against you, that causes the other party’s strength to be of no importance – to the contrary!

That led me to believe that in this vision of the world, East Asia may offer approaches that are a little bit more comprehensive. That is where I found the practices of Shiatsu, traditional Chinese medicine, the concepts anchored in Taoism – not religious Taoism, but philosophical Taoism, the foundation of Taoism in which life and living is a synergy between elements, and fighting and opposition no longer exist in these realms.

In addition, the symbols of Tao are little pods, smooth rounded shapes. There is no roughness, because there is no fighting, no conflict. There is a complementary synergy. This complementary synergy makes it possible to put human beings back into their proper place. Based on that, I thought that those concepts would be interesting to explore, especially through Shiatsu which offers a response to bodily tensions.

So, I went much further into it, and I realized that in fact the same applied to disease, suffering or tension, which was only the expression of a fight against something and the failure to accept something.

And from there, I discovered that if you manage to find the key and understand what it really is, what the underlying problem is, absolutely astonishing things will happen.

That is when I got into this so-called “rediscovery” phase, because I synthesized, I did not invent anything new. It was a major revelation and perhaps even the right answer. So, when I am confronted with an obstacle, instead of fighting it, I may need to look for the best way to control it.

Emilie: Is this what you are doing now in the situation that we find ourselves in?

Michel: Yes, because otherwise you cannot live with it, it becomes unbearable. There are only two ways you can respond. One: I give up and die slowly; or two: I fight it, and there is a chance that I may die a brutal death; or three: I withdraw, isolate myself somewhere and let the world take care of itself. In all of this, what choice can you make? It is very complicated, and everyone has to make their own choice. However, maybe I have a little bit of a voice to speak, to communicate, to transmit. That is clearly a real need, because I have never had so many requests, interviews or procedures before mid-March of this year. Everyone has a need to understand and make sense of things.

Emilie: It is very difficult for people to know what ailment they have, to listen to their body. How can we help them?

Michel: That is the job of the practitioner. People who are suffering find someone who is trained, who knows how to perform a psychoenergetic treatment.

It is the practitioner’s job to do that, and it is a rather amazing, because it has an absolutely incredible revelatory effect. At some point there is an insight that causes patients to abandon their state and status as a victim and take control of the situation again, because they understand where the problem is, and that happens very quickly.

It is enough to ask very basic and simple questions. Our grandmothers knew it already: “What is it that is troubling you? Are you a little overwhelmed? Stop getting all worked up over it!” Of course it seems simplistic when you say things like that, except that grandmothers didn’t just wake up one morning and said, “I’m going to come up with a clever saying!” It is simply the common language that has coined phrases for situations and states that had been observed.

And the state of victimhood is something that leaves us defenseless. That may seem paradoxical, but it is in the same vein as reappropriating something by saying, “I’m not going to stop here, I will fight, continue and move forward.” That does not mean ignoring what is going on. It is evidence that life, when it knocks on a door and we don’t hear it, finds a way to come in anyway or force its way in, in which case the symptom becomes much more significant. Illness and suffering definitely force you to question yourself and your actions.

Emilie: According to you, it is asking simple questions that helps us suddenly pay attention to our body, pay attention to our symptoms and become aware, right?

Michel: That was the major editorial precaution I took when I wrote my book. I took more than two years to write it – many of my patients said, we don’t know all that – because I absolutely did not want to fall into a system of formulas. What I wanted to expose above all was a very simple and basic idea, which is that as soon as I ask myself, “why is this happening to me?” I have already opened the door. The rest is nothing more than my capacity to accept what is going to reveal itself. That is not always easy, because we often have a tendency to numb our conscience because we don’t want to hear, because if something is not working, it is due to our behavior and our inability to change our habits.

That is often the greatest difficulty with my patients. They understand it on an intellectual level, but they are so comfortable with their habits, so reassured that they have trouble questioning them. If you do not feel well, are sick or injured, or if you had an accident, it is definitely because your behaviors have led you down that path. Therefore, there may be a need to change them.

Emilie: When I read your works, what I especially like is always that concept, that reference to the world of the invisible, and how you connect it to the real world, always with the notion of how much that can help us move forward.

However, for many people, that invisible world is a little bit crazy. It is not there. It is just in our mind. Because it is not tangible, it is not real. What advice would you give to people so that they can make a connection, to see or understand and integrate this “world of the invisible?”

Michel: You can’t go that fast. First you have to allow for the possibility. I often refer to Pascal’s wager. When asked about God, Pascal said something like, “if God did not exist and I believed in Him, I would not lose much. If God existed and I did not believe in Him, I would lose everything.” However, the only intelligent and rational bet I can make is to believe that God exists. It is difficult to prove the existence of the invisible, even if that depends on what you call invisible.

There are many ways in which that can be done. 200 years ago, a remote control would have been something magical. Today, we know that it exists. 50 years ago, WiFi would have been something magical; nevertheless, we know that it exists now. So, there are things that our senses do not capture which exist and function. Where should we set the limit? That is the real question that we should ask ourselves; but if I cannot prove that the invisible does not exist, maybe I should tell myself that perhaps it does exist. At that point, I possibly have to accept certain of its manifestations.

Acupuncture is based on something that is considered invisible. Yet, today surgeons operate using acupuncture for anesthesia. So, this is a classic example and a great reference.

Homeopathy is based on the invisible, even if it is highly controversial. However, what is disturbing is that it works with animals and with plants. Therefore, there are a certain number of elements that appear to prove that something can exist or function.

Vibratory memory structures exist. Amazing things happen during organ transplants, for example, with residual memories from people from whom the organs were taken. There are very interesting articles that have been published on that subject. There are particularly powerful studies that have been conducted on near death experiences (NDE), and what happened after clinical deaths, and so on and so forth.

There are researchers who have worked on that in the recent past, professor Pim van Lommel, for example. Studies on the use of cell phones in Faraday cages. Elements of quantum physics are being used to deal with the issue of non-locality of particles, certain issues of memory content in some of these particles.

Thus, it becomes very difficult to deny that invisible realm. The problem is that – as is the case with many other things – what was set aside by the glorious science of the 19th century, which has led us to only recognize matter, has given free rein to all the charlatans and impostors who will sell you the miracle of energy and the invisible realm, and promise you the moon and more in so many different ways. However, just because there are impostors in that realm, does that necessarily mean that it does not exist? The real question is just the opposite: if we want these impostors to disappear, we need to hurry up and investigate that field, to introduce scientific thinking and methods, responsibility, rationality, accuracy and justice into the modes of functionality.

Emilie: Do you think that we have gone too far in terms of technological development, with certain advances, such as organ transplants, which after all interfere with human cell structure? Do you think that the system is at the end of its rope in that sense, or is it simply progress which we more or less know how to use?

Michel: It is not not even a question of more or less progress. Overall, mankind’s goal is progress, in other words, the need to develop the technique.

Human beings understand and identify themselves and grow by the resonance with their interactions in the real world, with the exterior and with matter. It is the resonance with what were are capable of doing that means something to us. It is not only a real need, but it is inherent to human beings.

The history of mankind consists of technological progress. We went from the wooden torch, the oil lamp to the gas lamp, to the electric lamp. We have been able to make great progress in that area. However, we got off track when – because we managed to master matter and become aware that we mastered matter that way – we started to believe that we could move away from the more subtle field of spirituality, in other words, the sense that it gives things.

When the tool, or the interaction with matter, became the end in itself, we lost the meaning of it. Therefore, we lost the ethics which could be associated with it.

The progress we have made in medicine is absolutely breathtaking, astonishing, magnificent and magical, but unfortunately it is sometimes in the hands of people who do not use it for the purpose for which it is intended. Therefore, the problem is not progress itself, but the use that is made of it by those to whom it is left. And as long as there is the notion of profitability associated with progress, thus greed, there is a great danger. We are faced with the Mephistophelian promise according to which we have total power over things because we are fascinated by that. We are not aware of the price that is associated with it. That is the myth of Faust.

Emilie: So, how can we remedy that today? Does that need to be reviewed by new ethics committees in order for each of us to be better able to understand the technology imposed on us at the hospital or in other medical environments?

Michel: I do not believe very much in that, because when you set up a committee, it will consist of human beings each of whom will have a dark side. I do not think that this can be done on the superstructural level, as Marx said. It is rather a question of communication, education, and awakening of the individual conscience.

Everyone should become aware that everything that is free, everything that is easy, is in reality way too expensive. We must be very critical of all those promises of convenience, and understand that being a human being means standing on your own two feet, it is a constant effort, it means being vigilant about yourself, being the best that you can be for yourself and others. You cannot stop human beings from being greedy, from seeking profit, as so on.

Emilie: Have you found a school for life for you personally in the practice of Shiatsu?

Michel: Yes. In East Asia, in Japanese philosophies, I have found a philosophy of life, a way of being, and a noble respect for life which definitely nourishes something in me that was ready for it, because even in the world of Shiatsu we find the same proportions of population as in the entire population.

I belong to the ardent critics of a certain vision of the world of alternative medicines where anything goes. Unfortunately, that is counterproductive.

I have always said that alternative medicine must clean up its act to be respected. In order to be respected, it must become respectable.

Unfortunately, in that field we also have many people who take advantage, people who are excessive, who put other people in danger. There is a need for responsibility and professional ethics. So, this requires a daily and ongoing effort.

It is true that in East Asian philosophies, Japanese thought with Shintoism and its notions of kamis, there is this idea that everything that exists is truly the way it should be, animated by a subtle or “divine” essence, even if it is not a religious matter. This is a very important reflection because it leads us to respect everything that is worthy of existing.

Emilie: Yes, it is a very beautiful philosophy. You have also explored Indian philosophies, Ayurveda and Yoga.

Michel: Yes, so Ayurveda and all Indian philosophies (Ramayana) have kind of “repelled” me. What I mean to say with that is that they are incredibly complex. Ayurvedian medicine is extremely complex and extremely complicated, but at the same time, when you look for the roots, everything comes from there.

Emilie: It is complex and simple at the same time. It is complex, because when you read about it, it goes into a lot of detail. But it appears to be a medicine of observation of nature. And, if you look at it in general terms, it is an invitation to observe and experience.

Michel: Yes, but the problem I have with it is related to me, not with the method in itself. Even Chinese medicine comes from Ayurveda. There are 72 meridians in acupuncture, there are 72 nadis, and all of the concepts, even the yin and the yang, come from there.

Thus, there is an undeniable link that no one can deny. Where I differ is with regard to how we can adapt it and apply it in this world of ours, especially in the therapeutic field.

It is much more complicated because there is a concept of time that we cannot understand, there is a concept of utilizing massage which is different from ours. There is a relationship to the body which does not completely correspond to ours. There is a concept of an economic structure, for example. When you get a four-handed message, you are covered in oil, etc., that is not practical in the business environment. There are a lot of elements that present obstacles in the adaptation to our modern world.

Traditional Chinese medicine and Shiatsu (even more than traditional Chinese medicine) are an “intelligent synthesis” in the sense that the essence has been taken from it and has resulted in methods that can be used in today’s world.

Emilie: How would you describe Shiatsu to someone who knows nothing of about that type of massage?

Michel: “Shiatsu” in Japanese means finger pressure. “Shi” means fingers and “iatsu” means pressure. Therefore, it is a massage technique based on finger pressure. You work on the osteoarticular area at the same time, which means that you relax muscle tension, which loosens the joints, and you put the vertebral structures back in place. It is thus direct, physical work on the body; and then you have pressure protocols which work on the specific pathways known as meridians in acupuncture and on the specific points, acupuncture points. Both this physical and energy related work makes it possible to relieve the body, which is sort of a condenser, storing tension, before it results in an accident or a certain pathology.

Since it is based on a deep energetic reference and traditional Chinese medicine, the second feature is that body and spirit are one. Even if only few people have ever touched on that dimension, in traditional Chinese medicine there is a concept known as the concept of visceral entities. This concept establishes a precise link between the organs and the psyche. While this not the case with all versions of Shiatsu, when you develop that dimension, in addition to the work that frees the body of physical tension and the work performed on the acupunctural meridians, you will be able, through a type of anamnesis, to lead the individual to understand it and participate in the work that is being done. In that sense, Shiatsu is both a genuine physical relaxation, pure and simple, and an especially relevant, effective and genuine tool for physical maintenance and energy balance, and that can be a therapeutic tool.

Emilie: That is incredible! After all of this research, specifically focused on East Asia and its techniques, you who are of French origin, do you think that there were therapy techniques in ancient times that were not called that?

Michel: Yes, of course, we still have them in part today. They existed with Hippocrates and his theory on moods. Hippocrates said that if someone was in a bad mood, this could generate bad moods in the body. In other words, the moods were organic liquids in the body, so there was an extremely close relationship. Not so long ago, Alain Resnais released a film called Mon Oncle d’Amérique (My Uncle from America), with the participation of Henri Laborit, proving how stress, psychoemotional tension, was totally pathogenic, that it could be, in fact, the source of a disease.

There are more and more films on that subject. There are films that are inspired by my books. In Mon Roi (My King) by Maïwenn she actually reads an entire chapter from my book.

In today’s medicine, homeopathy is the closest to that vision. Homeopathic preparations all have a physical component and a psychoemotional component, and homeopathic treatments are extremely close in density, lasting between 25 - 30 minutes, in other words, very close to Chinese medicine or Shiatsu treatments. So, we have this knowledge, but as I said before, today everything that is not visible through a telescope or microscope does not exist.

Emilie: I find that interesting. It is also important to mention it, because when people hear about Shiatsu or Ayurveda, they often have this exotic view of it.

Michel: That is why I put it in the book. In fact, I put many examples and tools in my book that are based on homeopathy, essential oils, meditation and prayer, on a number of things that are available and known to us.

The applications are extremely powerful, even for essential oils with their molecular structure. It becomes evident that essential oils are not just cosmetic, but that they can work just like acupuncture needles. These are elements that have an extremely powerful psychoemotional impact.

Emilie: Which are part of the earth.

Michel: That’s it! They are part of the earth and are able to communicate with the encephalon, the limbic brain, they can emotionally affect someone, and do very powerful work.

Emilie: I have a different question that ties together what we have been talking about. Today, we can observe somewhat of an exodus from cities. People want to live in the countryside and be in touch with nature, perhaps exactly because they are looking for that reconnection with themselves. However, do you believe, that we all have a role to play in reintegrating the city as a therapeutic tool? What form could that take? How could a city like Paris evolve to become a comfortable living environment?

Michel: We are not going to get into politics. The city of today is pathogenic. Many people feel like leaving – I totally understand that. In order to stay and try to change things, you must be solid. If you are fragile, that will not allow you to help the recovery effort.

Cities have become vulgar, dirty, noisy, nervous and aggressive. In modern day Paris, we have managed to pit the pedestrians against the cyclists, against the scooter riders, against motorists, and people are getting to the point where they cannot stand each other and cannot live together anymore. So, this is also an area where we will have to introduce a little more integrity, humanity and respect for everyone. The battle is not won, as we are looking at false promises here as well, in the sense that people are talking about purifying the air and making it easier to get around. But in order to make it easier to get around, we need to make it more respectable.

Emilie: Exactly, because in the end it is a matter of spiritual pollution.

Michel: Yes, and the city becomes a kind of cruel jungle again, and fragile, sensitive people are going to have a hard time living like that. So it makes sense that there is a need to leave in order to find a little calm, green spaces, distance and tranquility. The only cities where I did not feel that were cities in Japan, where there are rules, and everyone respects them. There you can leave your wallet on a window sill and come back two hours later, and it is still there. You can use the sidewalk without having to look over your shoulder, you can cross a pedestrian crosswalk when it is your turn to cross without being run over. I think that there is a whole generation that will need to be educated differently, that will need to be taught how to be. In Japan, little children starting from the nursery learn how to tidy up their desks and clean their locker rooms. They do not experience it as a punishment or disrespect. On the contrary, they experience it as respect for others, and for those who will come afterwards.

Emilie: In Japan they have respect for all objects. They do not throw their belongings on the ground, because the ground itself has an energy.

Michel: You do not find papers on the ground at a train station. Look what happened at the last soccer World Cup. People were astonished to find the Japanese locker room clean, because the Japanese team had actually picked up after themselves. Everyone found it amusing, and some made fun of them.

We should avoid certain traps in order to have a better life within our society. Of course, in Japan they also have problems with burnout and despair, problems with solitude...

Emilie: … or connection with themselves.

Michel: Of course, but if we need to follow examples, let’s follow the best.

Emilie: Of course! And you, in that case, don’t you want to return to Japan?

Michel: No, and for one very simple reason. I am French, a Christian from the Western Hemisphere. So, I live in a certain context, an archetype, in a history and a culture where I have a place to be and to do things.

It is not that I do not want to go there. Certain things that go on in Japan do not appeal to me. If I did go, I would be adopting a strategy of withdrawal, I would withdraw from the world. The great martial arts masters have withdrawn from the world, but they had a certain mastery of things.

Emilie: Did they withdraw from the world at a critical moment?

Michel: No, I think that they withdrew from the world because they were done exploring and wanted to take care of themselves.

One of the rules of the Samurai code was to respect the respectable life. In other words, there was a deep respect for everything that is noble. Nobility does not mean material riches, but integrity, which can be found in a homeless person or in a tree. At some point, you can feel the expression of living that type of life, there is something wonderful about that. There is a profound need to show respect for other things and beings.

You have rocks, stones that should be respected. You stop, you look at their shape, you clearly see that there is something special about them. But that is only possible, if you look, observe, and are open-minded.

Emilie: It is also interesting to see how people talk about religion nowadays. It is important to have certain religious beliefs that are more in line with this, more open and comprehensive than usual, I mean.

Michel: Yes, there is a certain universality. I remember a friend who recommended a text to me one day, and I said to him, “where did you find this interview with Morihei Ueshiba, the founder of aikido?” He burst out laughing and turned the page. It was a selection from St. John. So, it is just a question of semantics.

Emilie: Incredible. Yes, it is in fact a question of semantics. That is why I asked you about Shiatsu, about the techniques of the grandmothers and about what we can find in ancient times, because that is what’s important: talking to people and communicating in a language that everyone can understand.

Michel: Of course. That’s the only thing that counts.

Emilie: And at the same time appreciate that universality, that cultural exchange in a world where we cannot travel as much as before.

Michel: Yes, soon we won’t be able to travel if we have not been vaccinated. For example, if I wanted to travel to Switzerland today, I would have to be quarantined for ten days. So yes, travelling is becoming complicated.

Emilie: Are you going to carry out your sessions online in that case?

Michel: It is not possible to perform a physical massage technique online.

Emilie: In this new world, the concept of touch is also an important topic. Please explain at what point physical contact becomes important?

Michel: It is extremely important, and to explain it I will refer to that famous experiment by Frederick II of Prussia, an enlightened ruler who wanted to find out if it was important to touch and communicate with children. He had his soldiers take small babies to the countryside and divided them into two groups.

Both groups were fed, washed and cared for in the same way. However, the babies in one group were communicated with and cuddled, and those in the other group were not touched or talked to. In the group where the children were not touched, none of them made it past the age of eight years – they all died.

That means that touch is one of the major senses. It is the first sense that connects us to life and living. We perceive the world through touch, through our hands. The first contact we have in the world, with another being, is with our mother and the physical interaction we have with her. Thus, these are essential factors and vectors in the development of our being and our self-awareness, one of the first vectors of awareness of otherness, and one of the first vectors of psychoemotional relationships, thus of affection, of the gesture that liberates and soothes. Therefore physical techniques, techniques that involve touch are of major importance.

Unfortunately, our response to the current pandemic is that of separation, of distance from each other. Other people present a problem and a risk. We absolutely must not abandon our relationship to touch, it is of major importance. It is truly essential, therapeutic and healing, even if the action is not technically therapeutic.

I know it and have seen it, and God knows that it was very difficult to endure during the lock-down. When I visited people in the nursing home, elderly people at the end of their lives, you cannot imagine how much health and happiness I brought them just by holding their hands. The separation, the disconnect, the social distancing cause them to let themselves die, they let themselves go, let themselves depart. It was the last essential link, a connection to life. It is a sense that is linked to the brain, it is a sense that has an extremely powerful physiological and psychoemotional reality.

Emilie: Are we headed toward destruction when take away touch?

Michel: Yes, and it is up to us human beings to reclaim it.

Emilie: So our sense of touch will be a kind of resistance, our way to choose life.

Michel: It is not sufficient for two people who love each other to stay side by side, they have to hold hands. Touching also brings us a real "resonance of being." We spoke about subtle areas; in the neurovegetative and endocrine areas, elements of major importance, we secrete oxytocin, we secrete serotonin, we secrete hormones of reward and happiness – we are talking about a link to the soul.

Emilie: I agree. When speaking about organs and body parts, there is a lot of fear right now. What does this correspond to with regard to organs and the human body?

Michel: It is the kidneys and adrenal glands, everything associated with adrenaline, leading to two types of responses: flight or fight. So we have been in a state of shock, a state in which human beings usually are confronted with a brush with death or extreme danger. The individual is anesthetized, paralyzed, taking a moment to be able to process the experience. This means that certain parts of the body lower their function in order to allow that work to be done.

We are past that state of shock. Now, the first consequences begin to emerge. The first response is flight or submission, and the second is aggression. That aggression has not been measured yet. It is difficult to say how far that will go. There is reason to fear a real wave of suicides. There is reason to fear what has happened, and not much has been said about it: violent behavior vis-à-vis children and between couples has increased a lot. Thus, that visceral fear has, in physical terms, had a negative impact on the renal structures and our response to stress. In addition, it weakened the kidney and bladder functions and, therefore, our ability to eliminate toxins and toxic elements.

There are a certain number of toxins inside of us that are poorly eliminated. So, unless we follow physical practices that will force us to do it, unless we have a balanced diet and stay well hydrated, there will be physical consequences, such as fatigue, less effective recuperation, less resistance to stress, a diminished capacity to eliminate certain pathogenic or toxic agents, and so on and so forth, which means an overall weakening.

Emilie: Still with reference to the link between organs and psyche, what is the connection with the lungs?

Michel: The lung is the outside world. It manages the skin, which is our armor, the energy that allows us to protect ourselves against aggressions from the outside world. It is also the immune system in its reactive dimension, thus macrophages, all of the first level and first degree responses through the skin, which is the concept of a sense of territory and the capacity for setting limits.

This capacity for setting limits has also been damaged. It started with open space offices where different ways of functioning and enclosed spaces were completely eliminated.

Our sense of territory and our points of reference which directly determine the capacity of our respiratory amplitude were negatively affected. When you feel at ease in an environment, your respiration becomes full. When you are tense or in protection mode toward the outside world, breathing becomes clavicular, it only goes into the upper sphere of the body. The shoulders are slightly bent forward and the chest closes a little bit and you go into under-ventilation, which results in an intoxication of the body, because our ability to eliminate nitrogen and carbon dioxide is impaired.

Certain toxins are eliminated through respiration and that requires the presence of oxygen. So, there is definitely a weakening in that area too. The more our organisms are weakened, especially in older people, the more we will see consequences in the respiratory system.

This is why, at the start of this epidemic, pathologies were mostly respiratory in nature (associated with SARS). Afterwards, depending on the age of the patients, we realized that not the same things were affected. We discovered that it was not the pulmonary area that was affected, but rather the blood.

Emilie: So, COVID in its current form, how is it dangerous? How do you see this virus?

Michel: I don’t know. With regard to the medical facts and based on the discussions I have had with many medical professionals, I would say that I am not competent to comment on that subject. I have a hard time identifying the actual risks that we are faced with today. But I can tell you about collateral damage, in other words, consequences that affect us as humans, individuals and as a society in the weeks and months to come. We really need to give people a little more confidence.

Emilie: So, if you had to give three daily recommendations, so that we can better prepare ourselves, what would those be?

Michel: That is what I laid out in my book entitled Dis-moi Comment Aller Chaque Jour de Mieux en Mieux (Tell me How to Feel Better and Better Every Day). There are two key moments: the time we go to sleep and wake up. These are crucial moments. You must absolutely avoid going to sleep while listening to and watching anxiety producing information and images. At night, the body memorizes a certain number of things, so we should not go to sleep with physical tension. The mind also stores and memorizes a certain amount of information, so you should go to sleep after reading a relaxing book, watching enjoyable and confidence inspiring movies that open your heart and bring in a little light – activities that reinforce positivity, a little bit like in the spirit of Japanese ikigai.

In the morning, avoid waking up with news broadcasts and anxiety producing information, because what happens at the time you wake up determines what will happen the rest of the day. Here too, try to take full advantage of breakfast time and make it a time of welcoming life and self-awareness.

In fact, we should make a prayer to ourselves each morning and evening, a prayer of honesty and integrity.

Finally, my third piece of advice: pay attention to how we breathe. In other words, whenever you have the chance, stop and take five simple, peaceful breaths, calm and deep. That may seem useless, but you cannot imagine how much you will benefit from it at the end of the day, if you do it about ten times per day. It takes two minutes, which is nothing. You can do it during your commute, at the desk, in the morning when you wake up and at night when go to bed. Just do a few breathing exercises by sitting down with your back straight; breathe deeply, draw your breath all the way down to your belly, and push the tensions into the ground.

Emilie: Yes, and what I like about this advice is that everyone can do it. You don’t have to buy anything, it is easy to do. It is just as important as eating well, for example.

Michel: And it takes very little time. No stress, no diet to adopt. Three such basic things to implement. A grandmother from Okinawa said that, when asked about the Japanese ikigai (which is this philosophy of life, providing longevity), that it begins first thing in the morning. When she gets up she goes into the street and greets five people with a smile, and they often respond by smiling back. When she eats her breakfast, she starts the day with five smiles. Doing that every day cultivates a way of being in which the darkness of the world has less and less of a hold on us.

Emilie: That is beautiful. So, you too think that we more or less create our own reality?

Michel: Not more or less. Even if we find ourselves in contexts where we cannot influence things that much at the moment, what we do about it is our reality. I am not saying that it is simple, but it is accessible and, most importantly, requires work and self-awareness.

Emilie: Do you manage to do it, or are there days where you feel helpless?

Michel: Of course, there are days when it is complicated. Nobody can feel apart from or unaffected by what is going on today, unless you are in denial. We all have friends, a family, people we are in contact with, a socioeconomic reality, and we all have a psychoemotional reality. But the basic idea is a permanent exhortation, just as in a saying by André Gide: “Everyone should follow their gradient, as long as it is pointing up.” Of course, we stumble and fall, but the important part is that we get back up.

Emilie: I would like for you to talk about the symbolic shower.

Michel: It is simple. It is a little visualization, a little meditation you can do. A real shower is also something that works very well. Take a shower every night for five minutes, and you will ground yourself and eliminate many things related to your energy and tension, a bit like static electricity on clothing. We charge ourselves with energy throughout the day, not always the best energy. So, a simple shower grounds you and allows you to eliminate it.

The symbolic shower is the same thing, but through visualization. In other words, we imagine being in a shower or waterfall that cleanses and washes us. We can also imagine that we are in a shower or cascade of light coming down from above that submerges us and blankets us. This is a very simple task. If you do it regularly, the results will astonish you, because it works.

In fact, it is amazing. We do rehab with people who have had accidents where nerves in the spinal cord got damaged, paraplegics who can walk again after a certain number of years. Using virtual reality, we get them to imagine that they are walking, and by imagining it and visualizing it, they repair their neuronal connections. These visualizations work.

Emilie: How do you live with technology? Do you limit your screen time to a certain number of hours or are you somewhat flexible?

Michel: I am rather flexible. During the writing and module preparation phases, I spend a lot of time in front of the screen. Today screens are not as problematic as the scan lines used to be, but at the same time I am not “screen dependent.” I can easily get away from the screen, and I do it whenever it is possible.

However, we can no longer live without technology. My generation knew a time when there was only one telephone in the village and you had to go through an operator to make a call. When you look at cell phones today, it is difficult to imagine how we ever lived without them. Amazing technologies, but you have to measure our psycho-intellectual dependence and the technological risks.

Emilie: And the psycho-emotional dependence created by the social networks in particular, where a self-alienation takes place.

Michel: Self-alienation existed before. People who need to find an identity through social networks do not have one elsewhere. If they do not find it elsewhere, it’s because the family or societal structures no longer provide it. People are into virtual reality. Before social networks existed, there was role playing, and for some time role playing became dangerous and pathogenic, because self-alienated people tried to reconstruct worlds and ended up in states of dependency.

It is similar with social networks. That is part of the pitfalls or the dark side of progress. A friend once told me, “a knife can be used to cut a slice of bread or to kill someone.” In other words, it is not the object itself that poses a problem, it is how it is used. Technology can certainly be problematic, especially in societies that have been stripped of their culture.

Emilie: Especially in situations like ours, at a time where fears and pathologies are multiplied.

Michel: Everybody becomes hysterical, and there is no longer any perspective.

Emilie: I have a question that is a little bit more technical. I have the impression of a movement of perverse narcissism around us; narcissism seems to be more and more significant in our society.

Michel: Narcissism is very significant, but perverse narcissists are no more significant than usual. On the other hand, people try to put that lable on everyone.

Emilie: There are also many mythological stories about that.

Michel: Yes, and it is inherent in human beings. In other words, existential fear leads to narcissism. In order to be sure that we exist, we indulge in navel gazing. That has been the great issue of reference between heliocentrism and geocentrism, where we are at the center of the world. So, if we are at the center of the world, everything around us has to revolve around us, which is classic narcissism. But true perverse narcissists are totally destructive, and that is a very specific behavioral pattern: they target others with the carrot-and-stick method. They wound people and then reassure them –

truly a very destructive and dark approach.

Emilie: When you look at the world today, is there a region of the world that seems more sensible to you?

Michel: I am looking for it. That does not mean that it does not exist, but I am looking for it. And since there is a lack of information regarding everything that is different, it is a difficult and complex undertaking. There is not such things as a wonderful, more sensible place. Maybe cultures where people have retained a sense of tradition, certain basic values. Despite certain aspects that I did not like, perhaps in Japan, where there is respect for self, respect for others and a collective attitude that are still strong and quite delightful due to their calming effect. For example, trains that arrive on time is something reassuring. The conductor greets the people on the train – that has a relaxing effect.

Emilie: Yes, you are right. In fact, when you say that cities are pathogenic, it is because of the permanent stress. Do you think that people cultivate an inner life in Japan?

Michel: Yes, of course. There is no other way.

Emilie: Who are your mentors at present or in spirit?

Michel: I am a free electron. Of course, there is master Nakasano thanks to whom I found Taekwondo and Shiatsu. I think of Morihei Ueshiba. In the Western world, Jung has been a particularly powerful and interesting trailblazer. In the world of psychology, there was Viktor Frankl, who developed logotherapy, a man who was not just an intellectual, but who lived in the concentration camps and overcame suffering through transformation.

There are true great masters of philosophy, such as Pascal and Plato. There is a universality regardless of your culture, the language you speak or the traditions you follow.

Emilie: That is why, when you speak of Shiatsu and Ayurveda, it is essentially the same thing?

Michel: Of course.

Emilie: And that is the story of nature.

You can listen to the original conversation in French here.